Building up stockpiles

[madadder]

Hey guys. Tonight I ran a little experiment about building up stockpiles. I looked around and dunno if this has been addressed on FLUB or not, so I figured I'd make a thread about it.

Woods for me has a Net Production of 23, so I decided to build up a stockpile of it to 3000 tons, it started at 800 tons and I started this experiment when it was at 1030 tons. I tweaked the spread and the min / max to watch how it correlated with the value. I observed this over 16 cycles.

Woods: value 528ig/ton Spread: 10% Stock: current 1030/min 100/max 1100 Efficiency: 100%

Woods: value 819ig/ton Spread: 10% Stock: current 1053/min 100/max 3000 Efficiency: 100%

Woods: value 529ig/ton Spread: 40% Stock: current 1099/min 100/max 1200 Efficiency: 100%

Woods: value 544ig/ton Spread: 6% Stock: current 1122/min 100/max 1200 Efficiency: 100%

Woods: value 533ig/ton Spread: 40% Stock: current 1145/min 100/max 1200 Efficiency: 100%

Woods: value 526ig/ton Spread: 40% Stock: current 1168/min 100/max 1200 Efficiency: 100%

Woods: value 532ig/ton Spread: 6% Stock: current 1191/min 100/max 1200 Efficiency: 100%

Woods: value 546ig/ton Spread: 40% Stock: current 1214/min 100/max 1300 Efficiency: 100%

Woods: value 549ig/ton Spread: 40% Stock: current 1237/min 100/max 1300 Efficiency: 100%

Woods: value 547ig/ton Spread: 40% Stock: current 1260/min 100/max 1300 Efficiency: 100%

Woods: value 532ig/ton Spread: 6% Stock: current 1375/min 100/max 1400 Efficiency: 100%

Woods: value 537ig/ton Spread: 6% Stock: current 1398/min 100/max 1400 Efficiency: 100%

Woods: value 555ig/ton Spread: 40% Stock: current 1421/min 100/max 1500 Efficiency: 100%

Woods: value 555ig/ton Spread: 40% Stock: current 1444/min 100/max 1500 Efficiency: 100%

Woods: value 526ig/ton Spread: 40% Stock: current 1467/min 100/max 1500 Efficiency: 100%

Woods: value 537ig/ton Spread: 40% Stock: current 1490/min 100/max 1500 Efficiency: 100%

It looks like the value (and I'm expecting this directly relates to the cost of the planet when it produces the 23 tons a cycle) was completely independent in regards to the spread. Sometimes it was higher with 6%, sometimes it was lower.

What DID seem to have a relation was the distance the current stock was from the max. The value also seemed to trend down for the most part as the stock level got closer to the max.

From this I've determined that, if you want to build a stockpile, it's cheaper if you can walk the commod up as you go. Just setting the max to what you want the stockpile at will cause your planet to spend significantly more to get the stock level to the max.

[smitty]

hey mad- good topic!

so far, i can basically confirm your findings. I don't do too much hauling out- because, well... i'm too lazy to walk my exchange up , and just setting the max to some huge number has really taken a bite out of my profits in the past. so, i really only care to build up my biggest 5-10 proudcers (with +40 p/c or higher).

efficiency seems to help a bit there too, mostly just because it makes those commods cycle more often, though i haven't done any concrete experimenting as to how much it helps

what i usually do is set each commod so that it will build from its current level to the max that i specify in one hour (I used a spreadsheet to calculate that, for four "steps" say 200 to 1000, then 1000 to 1800, then 1800 to 2600, then 2600 to 3400)- that gives me the option to watch it, or just log out and let it go. I will always know after an hour (or a little longer) that i can log back in and set the level to the next step. I typically do this 4 times (like the above numbers, if your producer actually produced 800 tons in an hour) before i haul out- then i set the spread to 40% to keep the most money in the planet, and haul till it's empty!

using this method, i DO make pretty good money, although it's quite a bit of work.

hopefully this will help out any newbie (or veteran!) POs that are still struggling.

sidenote: what i really do to make money, is fill defs! specifically having factories fill my defs. this is a LOT less work, as i can just sit in my bar and relax there's another topic on the board detailing how i fill defs- if you're interested

[zr]

The 'value' should only refer to the relationship with base and markup %.

The planet pays 10ig/commod to produce regardless of the value (should be in idiots somewhere, but it may also be in comparision of classic to fed2 as classic it was 9ig, why I rem the # for fed2 is 10).

I suppose it extrapolates out if you have a net prod of 23 to the planet paying 2300/cycle, though that would be modified by any consumption factors for that commod.

"Value" also, now that I think of it, should be in relation to your consumption---what your wts are paying to eat the prods---so in that sense you'd be losing money if you were walking up a high consumption (though obviously it'd be a net prod commod), which is an interesting possibility.

Sorry if any of that is confusing, I'm sure Smitty'll be in shortly to make things clearer, to correct anything, and to add his perspective.

~ ZR /// Alan /// Lorzec

[madadder]

I don't think planets produce anything at 10ig a ton in Fed 2... In Classic they would produce at 9/10ths the buying price (because even at the max the ex would always buy a commod at 10 ign a ton), and the buying price would be 10 ig / ton if the exchange had 50% or more of the Maximum in stock at the moment. I couldn't find anything in the Idiots Guides about it either, but based on my total profit after hauling out some of a stockpile, it seems like a planet produces goods at the value price (or very close to it). There's definitely no way to set the value (though it can be manipulated by raising / lowering the Max on a commod), and the markup is just the Value divided by the base price of a commod.

In regards to hauling out, I've found that if you really want to jack up the value (and therefore the sale price), build up a stockpile of about 6 bays worth I did this with pharms with the max at 800, the value was about 545. I set the max to 20000, the spread to 40, waited a cycle, and boom, the value jumped to over 700 and the sale price was 848 ig / ton. This would be bad for personal profit, but it would be very good for transferring from personal balance into the treasury instead of xferring (taxes).

EDIT:

Here's an example -

Before -
LanzariK: value 514ig/ton Spread: 20% Stock: current 800/min 100/max 800 Efficiency: 100%
+++ The exchange display shows the prices for LanzariK +++
+++ Exchange has 700 tons for sale +++
+++ Offer price is 616ig/ton for first 75 tons +++
+++ Exchange will buy 75 tons at 411ig/ton +++

I then set the spread to 40, the max to 20,000 tons, and wait 1 exchange cycle for...

After -
LanzariK: value 835ig/ton Spread: 40% Stock: current 806/min 100/max 20000 Efficiency: 100%
+++ The exchange display shows the prices for LanzariK +++
+++ Exchange has 706 tons for sale +++
+++ Offer price is 1002ig/ton for first 75 tons +++
+++ Exchange will buy 75 tons at 668ig/ton +++

Through a low stockpile and simple exchange manipulation, I'm able to put 386 ig per ton (or a very handsome 28,950 ig per bay) into the planet. I can haul it out then set the max back so the exchange can replenish at a cheaper price.

I'm not an expert about building stockpiles and hauling out, but I *think* this might ultimately be better than building up large stockpiles and hauling out little by little.

[zr]

oh, tenths...see that's what it was.---was close enough that you knew what I meant. Classic was 9/10, fed2 is (supposedly) 10/10 (so full price, I guess you can call it).

Not sure---I can make a lot hauling in but rarely have the interest in staying logged in long enough to do that (takes me around 1 hr for my exchange deficits) --- and theoretically if could be online more often (prob better if variable thru the day, though I don't have that option right present, as a lot of you don't either) --- so just working with what I have.

I may actually be leaving again, there's really no point in being here while ibgames continues to piddle around and get very little done, the interest in the game just isn't what it used to be. The chars will be kept current/active or whatever they call it so the autopruner doesn't eat them, but...otherwise I'll prob be leaving in awhile.

[brookerf]

It is so quiet around here that I throw out my questions with the barest hope someone will know the answer!

I have been experimenting with walking up certain commods in my exchange. I've made great money doing this, but it is taking me soooooo long. From reading the posts in this thread, I'm really walking it up much too slowly. The problem is, if I walk up my exchange any faster than 400 tons at a time, my exchange seems to be losing money. Is this the case for everyone or am I doing something wrong?

Am thinking of trying Madadder's method above, with the low stockpile, high max. Mad, if you still read here, is this method still working for you?

[smitty]

well, there are a couple things that *could* cause you to lose money... but i tend to ignore those things!

my number one tip (and this is the only way i do things) for MAKING money is this: when you're about to haul out, set your spread to 40%, and your max to 10000- THEN WAIT until the commod cycles one more time- this will force the price waaaaay up, and put the most money into your exchange... the commod should just get more and more expensive as the gap between stock and max widens.

now, the key thing here is to haul to a planet that is *empty* and you should still make a little bit in the personal cash.

[brookerf]

Smitty: now, the key thing here is to haul to a planet that is *empty* and you should still make a little bit in the personal cash. >>>

Brooke:
I've been trying that strategy and it really has made me sad that I don't have more BIG producers! I had an event that jacked my nickel production up to 105 and loved that I could walk up the exchange so fast. I've been able to do AT LEAST a build a day using this method.

So are you saying that your planet loses money when you walk up your exchange, but it is so insignificant that it doesn't matter? I am messing around with things, trying to find that magic number that I can increase my commods without any damage to the exchange. It's currently somewhere between 300-400 tons. (at least for the two exchanges where I'm trying this)


Thanks for the ideas. I'm pretty psyched to keep using this little 'trick'...

Brooke

[smitty]

brooke- yes, i always "lose" money when walking up my exchange... but when i finish selling everything, i have way more than i had when i started walking up. this is because you are paying *something* while producing- but it's a fairly low price.

what i did was to take every single producer i have (over 15 net production) and calculate how much they will produce in one hour (when things are running slowly). i took that number, and f-keyed the steps for 5 hours. through a little experimenting, i found this to be the best balance of cost vs time waiting for the next step.

so, for example, let's say i have 500 meg in my exchange, all my commods are at 200 tons. i'll start walking my exchange up, and after my 5 steps (5 hours on a slow day, 1.5-2 hours on faster days) all my producers are full. now my exchange is probably at 475-480 meg... but keep in mind, this is NOT a loss. all that money didn't disappear, it's just tied up in stock. now, i'll set my exchange spread to 40, stock max to 10000, and wait a few minutes for each commod to cycle 1 time...

ok, time to trade! when i'm done hauling out, my exchange will be at 507-508 meg! so, walking the exchange and hauling everything back out just made the PLANET 7 meg, plus whatever you made personally from the trading!

you can do this several times a day, fairly easily, for a profit of 20 meg or more PER DAY straight into the planet!

[brookerf]

Thank you so much for the info. I really do appreciate your advice...probably need to start a Smitty file for all the things I've printed out over the months here... <grin>

I think I've been way too conservative by only walking up my highest producing commods. Am heading off to check out my exchange again!

[oddball]

I do pretty much as Smitty has suggested albeit on a grander scale.

First, I set my stockpiles (max) to whatever it will produce in a 24 hr period (I assume 6-10 merchant/traders online). Spread is always at 25 so those traders/merchants will be able to profitably trade on my planets. I could probably squeeze a bit more out by walking the piles up during the day, but have opted not to.

Second, I haul in whatever defs are needed. Again, I could optimize this by changing the spread down to 6 but for the marginal increase, it isn't really worth it.

Third, I haul out all the goods I've made in the past 24 hrs. Spread is changed to 40 to maximize price. It takes about 3 hrs to haul everything out of the main planet. The secondary planet doesn't make much so it takes alot less time there and truth be told I don't bother much with it. I haul out 6 bays at a time (never more, never less) and drop it at planets with demand and no factories. I average 150-170 meg in goods hauled out and the planet nets 30 - 40 meg in profit. I make another 20-30 meg in trading profits which are deposited back into the planet (less taxes of course!)

Formula isn't hard and can be adapted to whatever time constraints you have. Travelling again here so much less time than I had previously. I'm down to trading maybe 2 times a week.

One interesting note: I've noticed some folks closing their link and only opening when they are online (or just hauling out or not allowing anyone to haul in). I guess they think this will make them earn groats faster. A better solution is properly setting the max on their defs (assuming the fear is someone "dumping" on them). I have all my defs set at 200.

I am playing with the idea of exiling folks assuming this posture for any extended length of time (as well as any factory owners supporting them). My thinking is, they are not "pulling their weight" by participating in the collective economy. Or more accurately, if they are not going allow anyone to sell on their planet, why should I allow them to sell on my two. I think exiling the factory owners might have more impact. With 147 exchanges available, there are plenty of places to buy/sell, but those factory owners don't want to make enemies (I would assume). And it the world is a resource or above that could cause a problem. But then again, everyone seems to have 5 or 6 alts handy so maybe not a good plan...lol

ok enough rambling thoughts,

Odd

[brookerf]

I guess they think this will make them earn groats faster. A better solution is properly setting the max on their defs (assuming the fear is someone "dumping" on them). I have all my defs set at 200. >>>>


I don't mind one bit if someone wants to do business on my planet (I'm usually very grateful for it), but it does irritate me when people use macros (and apparently the same one was shared at one time) to sell the same thing over and over to my planet before it has even consumed what it sold the last time. When two or more people are using the same macro/hauling routes, and selling the same thing in short order (or things the factories are producing...which are set to 800), it *does make a difference.

I have closed my link a couple of times due to dumping. If it were only the one person using the macro, that is one thing, but it wasn't just one person. The macros WERE making a difference in my exchange. I am not dealing in huge amounts of groats like the rest of you. I make ten megs at a time (sometimes in a day from hauling, sometimes over a week of filling defs), spend it on a build and then try to make some more.

I haven't felt the need to close my link in some time. I've promoted both planets since then and have gained a third (from the Mogul rank). The legit haulers will come and find out what the defs are and what the facs are. The two haulers who were the main culprits have not been in the game for some time, so it really hasn't been an issue since then anyways.

I will certainly understand if you need to exile me, though. My alts are the same who own factories on my planets.

[oddball]

Yes if your max is set to 800 then it would make a difference. If I can be so bold, why set to 800 tho? If you set to 200, the most you can get "dumped" on is 2 or 3 bays. After that, the planet rejects the sale.

It's a pain, but I check planets before setting up routes. Not to say I haven't made a err or two over time...chuckle. Planets promoting is the biggest pain in the butt as the changes in the planet may not become apparent for a day or two along with factory changes. I tend to leave agri planets alone for several weeks when they link as the factories are slow to appear and I dont have time to check everyday.

I have noticed macros at the lower levels being passed around, havent noticed at trading level but will look closer now. Of course I may define macro a bit differently. I guess in it's basest sense, the F-Keys in Fedterm are macros. I would tend to define it as anything that does your thinking for you.

[brookerf]

Yes if your max is set to 800 then it would make a difference. If I can be so bold, why set to 800 tho? If you set to 200, the most you can get "dumped" on is 2 or 3 bays. After that, the planet rejects the sale. >>>

I set most of the defs that factories fill to 800 in case the exchange doesn't consume the commods fast enough. With a very big deficit in many commods, I have multiple factories. Yes, they are set to the exchange at intervals, but some days, they don't get 'eaten up' fast enough. I feel like it is the safest way to protect my factories. I'm not a pro at all this...this is just what I do and it seems to make sense (I'm college educated, I promise).

As for macros, I use F-keys to fill my deficits. If I sell to someone's exchange, I do it manually so I can check before I sell. When I see macros running, especially in Sol, where a ton of trading is done, it just seems so pointless to sell a commod that is already overflowing. (BTW, I tried to buy commods in Sol using my F-keys once and was sadly thrown into the sun about 30% of the time! It isn't worth it!) I suppose if I used something a little "stronger", I would make a lot more money, but I very much enjoy doing it myself...feel much more in control of what's going on. Whether anyone at the upper levels are passing around the same macro or not, at one time, at least two players were selling the exact same commods, in the exact same order to my exchange. Seemed like too much of a coincidence, unless it was someone with an alt that did the hauling at the same time? ::shrug::

[oddball]

800 makes sense in that context. I think I may be a bit more conservative on the number of factories I allow in any given commodity. I use 35-40 / cycle as my baseline rather than the 25 most folks use. That way, I don't really have too worry too much about someone selling the commodity on the planet as it generally still will be in deficit. (Note: I am not saying there is a "right" answer). Of course the more the merchants/traders are on (which is alot over the past 2 months), the quicker it goes to max def.

As for macros, way back when we were paying $6/hr to play, most of the old timers opted quickly for com programs that had some type of scripting ability. It was, if you will, a battle of wits...how long could "they" make us stay connected to play, how quickly could "we" defeat the system..chuckle. Today, the issues are different I would think. I've used several different programs to connect (mostly cause when I am on the road I have to use the company's laptop and there are restrictions on what can be on there).

Today, I use both FedTerm and Zmud (used Procomm back when) just depends on which will connect on any given day from the laptop. All of my routes are in a Word file and I can cut/paste them to F-keys in FedTerm pretty quickly. Doing it that way also allows me to change them when I notice changes in planet economies (promotions etc) Fill 12 F-keys up, execute them, do it again, kinda boring stuff. There are of course programs that would do that as well if one were so inclined. If I use Zmud, it may shave 20 mins off of a 3 hr job (but then I stop and doing other things too...chuckle). The same thing is stored individually in Zmud scripts. None of my scripts for Zmud do any "thinking" and they don't run any faster than F-Keys. I think the difference isn't so much what program you are using as opposed to how much time you have to work with. That said, there would be ways to make much more if you built logic into your scripts. "Back when" I would have been inclined to do it that way, today no. Just don't have the desire I guess...

Ah yes...very dangerous to use F-keys(scripts) in sol if you don't pay the customs man....ask my alt...I think he had 21 death by sun before he decided to pay up...lol

Hope you aren't taking offense to the discussion as it's not intended to cause any (the earlier post on exile was not directed at you or for that matter at anyone...just a passing thought)

Odd